CoinsAreFun
US Coins, World Coins, and More => US Coins, tokens and medals => Topic started by: cpm9ball on February 17, 2011, 11:37:36 AM
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I've been checking the tracking religiously, and they just posted a few minutes ago. Two of the 19mm bronze medals graded, "UNC DETAILS - MOUNT REMOVED", whatever that means. I'll have to look into it.
001 1969 A.N.A. SILVER 78TH - PHILADELPHIA PA. 38mm MEDAL MS 69
002 1969 A.N.A. BRONZE 78TH - PHILADELPHIA PA. 38mm MEDAL MS 66
003 1969 A.N.A. BRONZE 78TH - PHILADELPHIA PA. 19mm MEDAL MS 67
004 1970 A.N.A. SILVER 79TH - ST. LOUIS MO. 38mm MEDAL MS 69
005 1970 A.N.A. BRONZE 79TH - ST. LOUIS MO. 38mm MEDAL MS 69
006 1970 A.N.A. BRONZE 79TH - ST. LOUIS MO. 19mm MEDAL MS 67
007 1971 A.N.A. SILVER 80TH - WASHINGTON DC 38mm MEDAL MS 69
008 1971 A.N.A. BRONZE 80TH - WASHINGTON DC 38mm MEDAL MS 69
009 1971 A.N.A. BRONZE 80TH - WASHINGTON DC 19mm MEDAL MS 68
010 1972 A.N.A. SILVER 81ST - NEW ORLEANS LA. 38mm MEDAL MS 69
011 1972 A.N.A. BRONZE 81ST - NEW ORLEANS LA. 38mm MEDAL MS 69
012 1972 A.N.A. BRONZE 81ST - NEW ORLEANS LA. 19mm MEDAL UNC DETAILS MOUNT REMOVED
013 1973 A.N.A. SILVER 82ND - BOSTON MA. 39mm MEDAL PF 65 ULTRA CAMEO
014 1973 A.N.A. BRONZE 82ND - BOSTON MA. 39mm MEDAL MS 69
015 1973 A.N.A. BRONZE 82ND - BOSTON MA. 19mm MEDAL UNC DETAILS MOUNT REMOVED
016 1974 A.N.A. SILVER 83RD - BAL HARBOUR FL. 39mm MEDAL PF 66 CAMEO
017 1974 A.N.A. BRONZE 83RD - BAL HARBOUR FL. 39mm MEDAL MS 69
018 1974 A.N.A. BRONZE 83RD - BAL HARBOUR FL. 19mm MEDAL MS 68
019 1975 A.N.A. SILVER 84TH - LOS ANGELES CA. 38mm MEDAL MS 68
020 1975 A.N.A. BRONZE 84TH - LOS ANGELES CA. 38mm MEDAL MS 68
021 1975 A.N.A. BRONZE 84TH - LOS ANGELES CA. 19mm MEDAL MS 65
022 1976 A.N.A. SILVER 85TH - NEW YORK NY. 38mm MEDAL MS 69
023 1976 A.N.A. BRONZE 85TH - NEW YORK NY. 38mm MEDAL MS 65
024 1976 A.N.A. BRONZE 85TH - NEW YORK NY. 19mm MEDAL MS 67
025 1977 A.N.A. SILVER 86TH - ATLANTA GA 38mm MEDAL PF 67 ULTRA CAMEO
026 1977 A.N.A. BRONZE 86TH - ATLANTA GA 38mm MEDAL MS 67
027 1977 A.N.A. BRONZE 86TH - ATLANTA GA. 19mm MEDAL MS 68
028 1978 A.N.A. SILVER 87TH - HOUSTON TX. 38mm MEDAL MS 66
029 1978 A.N.A. BRONZE 87TH - HOUSTON TX. 38mm MEDAL MS 68
030 1978 A.N.A. BRONZE 87TH - HOUSTON TX. 19mm MEDAL MS 67
031 1979 A.N.A. SILVER 88TH - ST. LOUIS MO. 38mm MEDAL MS 68
032 1979 A.N.A. BRONZE 88TH - ST. LOUIS MO. 38mm MEDAL MS 69
033 1979 A.N.A. BRONZE 88TH - ST. LOUIS MO. 19mm MEDAL MS 68
034 1980 A.N.A. SILVER 89TH - CINCINNATI OH. 38mm MEDAL MS 69
035 1980 A.N.A. BRONZE 89TH - CINCINNATI OH. 38mm MEDAL MS 68
036 1980 A.N.A. BRONZE 89TH - CINCINNATI OH. 19mm MEDAL MS 68
037 1981 A.N.A. SILVER 90TH - NEW ORLEANS LA. 38mm MEDAL MS 64
038 1981 A.N.A. BRONZE 90TH - NEW ORLEANS LA. 38mm MEDAL MS 65
039 1981 A.N.A. BRONZE 90TH - NEW ORLEANS LA. 19mm MEDAL MS 67
040 1982 A.N.A. SILVER 91ST - BOSTON MA. 38mm MEDAL MS 69
041 1982 A.N.A. BRONZE 91ST - BOSTON MA. 38mm MEDAL MS 68
042 1982 A.N.A. BRONZE 91ST - BOSTON MA. 19mm MEDAL MS 68
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Wow, that's some haul you got there :3dancingsmiley;
The only thing I can think of when they say "UNC DETAILS MOUNT REMOVED"
Is that it must have come from a jewelry mount.
Overall you did tremendously well :2Beer;
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Thanks, Stef!
Yeah, I was pleasantly surprised that 25 out of 42 graded 68 & 69. Also, I'm happy that two of the proofs got UCAM, but I knew the Bal Harbor probably wouldn't. The design is so intricate on the one side that it is practically all cameo.
I was also thinking that someone may have removed them from the Capital holders and had them mounted in a ring or something, and then they put them back in the case to sell them. It just never dawned on me to check the rim and the edge that closely.
Chris
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Very nice submission Chris, congrats.
Do you, by any chance, have a pic of the Bal Harbor?
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Very nice submission Chris, congrats.
Do you, by any chance, have a pic of the Bal Harbor?
I'll get photos for you when they arrive. The NGC photos haven't posted yet, but it will be Cert #4043386-016.
Chris
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Hi, Chris... I'm nor a heavy duty medal collector, but...
Some medals were issued with rings for attachment to ribbons or badges.
Perhaps the particular medal had such hardware carefully removed.
I say carefully since you didn't notice.
Not saying this is the case here, but a possibility perhaps.
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Congrats on the grades Chris. Quite a haul indeed. :smiley-cool11:
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They arrived today! I'm glad I kept raising the issue at the NGC Luncheon at FUN. Prior to this year, NGC wouldn't grade them. I guess they got tired of me asking "When?"
I rushed these group photos. They could be better.
Chris
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Rocco, here are the Bal Harbor medals. I tried taking an individual of the silver, but it didn't come out too good. I just don't seem to have an adequate space in the new residence for taking photos.
Chris
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Now THAT is a lot of medals! Nice deal! Did they tell you why they wouldn't grade them before? I thought NGC would grade all medals...
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Hi Chris,
Thanks for posting those pics. What a beautiful set you have there.
Those reverses on the Bal Harbor's are totally aweesome. I see why you are so happy. :)
Thaks for sharing Chris.
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Now THAT is a lot of medals! Nice deal! Did they tell you why they wouldn't grade them before? I thought NGC would grade all medals...
It was my understanding that NGC didn't have adequate reference materials to provide proper research for medals struck at private mints. Of course, there were exceptions like the So-Called Dollars, but I still have some 600 medals for state & town anniversaries, i.e. centennials, bicentennials, sesquicentennials, etc., that they still can't accept. There are so many privately struck medals that it would be nearly impossible to amass all of the reference materials necessary to do the job right.
Now, if I can only convince them to accept medals struck by the Monnaie de Paris that are larger than 37mm.
Chris
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Oh, I didn't think of that. Thanks for the info. I have a few French medals coming in, my first real medals. Not sure why NGC would limit a medal size to 37mm as they have those huge holders available.
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It's not that they don't have the new oversized slabs, it's again a problem with adequate reference material. I've tried for years to find a comprehensive reference book for Paris Mint medals, but it just isn't available. The only thing out there from the Monnaie de Paris is their annual guide. If you were fortunate enough to be able to locate one for each year from, say, 1800-1900, it would cost you in excess of $2K.
The reason I said 37mm is because they do have the Mitchiner reference but it is only good for jetons, medalets and tokens which just happen to be limited in size to 37mm or less.
Chris
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Ah, I gotcha. My first thought was a slab size resriction. I know how hard it can be to find reference info for jetons, even with the Mitchiner book. I bet those guys at NGC can afford the extensive library for medal reference, but maybe they just don't have enough call for it. I know that most reference books I come across are in French, that could be an obstacle, too.
I'm starting to get interested in the French medals of the early 1900's, so I find this very interesting and helpful, thanks Chris.
*sorry for getting this thread a little off-topic.
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Ah, I gotcha. My first thought was a slab size resriction. I know how hard it can be to find reference info for jetons, even with the Mitchiner book. I bet those guys at NGC can afford the extensive library for medal reference, but maybe they just don't have enough call for it. I know that most reference books I come across are in French, that could be an obstacle, too.
I'm starting to get interested in the French medals of the early 1900's, so I find this very interesting and helpful, thanks Chris.
*sorry for getting this thread a little off-topic.
Nothing is off-topic where I'm concerned as it applies to numismatics. Now, if you have a hot date for me, please use the PM.
Oh, I'm sure that NGC could afford it if you could find them, but what about earlier centuries?
The best that I could do for a reference was the Biographical Dictionary of Medallists by L. Forrer. It doesn't provide mintages, composition and such, but it is one heck of a resource for background info on each medallist including the titles of their works. It's an 8-volume set with 5,000+ pages spanning the period 500BC to 1900AD.
Chris
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http://www.amazon.com/Biographical-dictionary-medallists-seal-engravers-500-/dp/1406982466/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1298157489&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Biographical-dictionary-medallists-seal-engravers-500-/dp/1406982466/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1298157489&sr=8-1)
This the one? Sounds very interesting, and you say it has the medallists/engravers from the 17-1800's included? I have wanted to read up on those guys for a while now. Thanks for the info.:)
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Where the information is available, it will give you when & where they were born and died, the schools for design they attended, what competitions they participated in and the awards they received as well as a listing by date of the medals they designed.
Chris
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That's a different book, and judging from the price, it probably only lists names. I also noted that the one you linked is paperback and my set is hardbound. The set I have was purchased from Hedley Betts in California and can be seen on his site here:
http://www.medalsoftheworld.com/ (http://www.medalsoftheworld.com/)
When I bought it, it was $500 with free shipping. Now, he sells it for $600 but I don't know if he still provides free shipping.
This is what the set looks like:
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$600- Ouch! That makes sense though, I wondered how I could get a comprehensive numismatic book for under $30, like the one on my link.
Sounds like a nice Christmas gift suggestion. ;)
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Well, to give you a preview, why don't you throw out the names of a few medallists, and I'll tell what info the set has.
Chris
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Cool! The first ones that come to mind are Nicholas Briot and Oscar Roty. Roty was closer to the 1900's though, and is the artist behind many really cool designs that I've just recently discovered. Briot was working in the late 1500's to early 1600's and migrated from France to G. Britain.
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Nicholas Briot was born at Damblain (Bassigny, Duchy of Bar) in Lorraine circa 1579 and died circa 1646. He was Chief Engraver at the Paris Mint from 1606-1625; he was appointed to the same post at the Royal Mint, London in 1633; Mint Master in Scotland, 1635-1639; Engraver of the coins of Lorraine, 1611-1624.
Briot succeeded Philip Danfrie at the Paris Mint, from whom he had purchased the office on the death of his son. I should interject, here, that in those days, it was quite common for a son to succeed his father in a position such as this.
Briot's first wife, Pauline Nisse, died in 1608; he remarried in 1611 Esther Petau, who at his death in 1646 was left penniless; but on the restoration of Charles II, she recovered the arrears due her husband amounting to 3000 pounds.
Briot invented or improved a new method of striking coins and medals by the balance which made them more perfectly round than they had ever been before, and submitted it to the Paris Mint authorities as early as 1615, but disgusted at the treatment he received, and pressed by his creditors, he fled to England. He worked at the Royal Mint as early as 1628 where he engraved coin dies for Charles I until his appointment as Chief Engraver in 1633. During his tenure as Master of the Mint in Scotland, he endured the Civil War and retired to Oxford where he died in 1646.
There are six full pages listing his works which is too extensive to post here.
Chris
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I'll post Louis Oscar Roty tomorrow. He is my favorite, and there are 20 pages of his works listed.
Chris
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Nicholas Briot was born at Damblain (Bassigny, Duchy of Bar) in Lorraine circa 1579 and died circa 1646. He was Chief Engraver at the Paris Mint from 1606-1625; he was appointed to the same post at the Royal Mint, London in 1633; Mint Master in Scotland, 1635-1639; Engraver of the coins of Lorraine, 1611-1624.
Briot succeeded Philip Danfrie at the Paris Mint, from whom he had purchased the office on the death of his son. I should interject, here, that in those days, it was quite common for a son to succeed his father in a position such as this.
Briot's first wife, Pauline Nisse, died in 1608; he remarried in 1611 Esther Petau, who at his death in 1646 was left penniless; but on the restoration of Charles II, she recovered the arrears due her husband amounting to 3000 pounds.
Briot invented or improved a new method of striking coins and medals by the balance which made them more perfectly round than they had ever been before, and submitted it to the Paris Mint authorities as early as 1615, but disgusted at the treatment he received, and pressed by his creditors, he fled to England. He worked at the Royal Mint as early as 1628 where he engraved coin dies for Charles I until his appointment as Chief Engraver in 1633. During his tenure as Master of the Mint in Scotland, he endured the Civil War and retired to Oxford where he died in 1646.
There are six full pages listing his works which is too extensive to post here.
Chris
Hey, that IS pretty detailed info, and very interesting. I read somewhere that Elloye Mestrell was, at least in part, also developing the coin press for France and later England. I think maybe Mestrell was a little earlier though, in France in the 1570's now that I think about it.
There must be some good records to have lasted so long. Briot engraved the silver English jeton that I have, which got me interested in his work.
Thanks for posting this info.:)
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Louis Oscar Roty was born at Paris June 11, 1846 and he died at Paris March 23, 1911. He is the chief exponent of modern French medallic art, and with the late Jules Clement Chaplain, one of the leaders of a school which is first in the world. Roty entered the Ecole des Beaux Arts in 1864 and first studied painting under the direction of Lecoq de Boisbaudran. Later he entered the workshop of the sculptor Augustin Dumont. In 1872 he obtained the second Grand Prix de Rome, and the following year he was rewarded at the Salon with a Medal of the Third Class for a model of a medal, L'Amour pique. He won the first Grand Prix de Rome in 1875. Roty spent three years in Rome.
Back in Paris, Roty was awarded a medal of the Second Class at the Salon of 1882 and a medal of the First Class in 1875. At the Universal Exhibition of 1889, he won the Grand Prix. He was created a Knight of the Legion of Honour in 1885 and promoted to the rank of Officer on October 29, 1889. In June, 1888 he was appointed Professor at the Academie des Beaux Arts and in 1897 was named President of that institution.
As I said before, Roty's works are too numerous to mention. One of my favorites is the plaquette shown below L'Amour consolant l'Humanitewhich was used for the 1900 Universal Exhibition.
Chris
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That's a beautiful plaquette, and I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one interested in this sort of thing. I've got a plaquette on it's way from a seller in France (no telling how long 'til it gets here), I'll post pics when it arrives.
Thanks so much for posting the info on Roty, I was searching later-date jetons and came across what I consider to be the final evolution of art on jetons when I saw some of Roty's work. All I can say is that it's amazing! I then discovered a few of the medals that he did, and I immediately had to search for any pictures available of this type of engraving. I ended up ordering a few pieces (no Roty pieces yet). I think it's a natural step into these medals after collecting jetons, they're so similar.
It is interesting to read of Roty's background in art and engraving, even inspiring. I'd have loved to have pursued something like this had I gone on to college. But alas, we can at least enjoy the beautiful works if not being a part of it. I think that's the driving force behind my jeton collection, holding these beautifully engraved and original pieces from the rise and development of fine (numismatic) art.
Again, thanks for posting this info for me.:)
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Do you have Mitchiner's book on Jetons? It's what NGC uses for research and determining what they will accept for grading. The "book store" at FUN 2009 had a copy, but he wanted $200 and wouldn't budge on the price. When I got back home, I searched online and found a seller in England who had several new copies with a BIN/Make Offer. So, I did a quick calculation of the conversion from USD to GBP (including shipping) to make him an offer of $150 USD and he accepted. It's really a good book. It covers jetons, medalets and tokens for the Low Countries (Benelux) and France for the 14th through early 20th centuries. Besides providing such things as weight, diameter and composition, it also has a cross reference for translations (many are in Latin) to help you locate them.
Out of curiosity, what is the name of the seller in France? I've dealt with several, and I wonder if I know the person. In my previous experience, shipments usually take about 10 days from France, but it depends on how quickly it is sent. Some sellers live in small countryside villages, and mail can take a little longer to process within the French mail system.
Chris
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I picked up Michiner's book from a VCoins seller last summer for about $150, and I agree that it's the most comprehensive guide available to us. It doesn't include all jetons, but is has tons of them. I just look through the pictures sometimes, getting ideas for my "want list". Even the price guide in the back is quite helpful, even though it's outdated it gives a reference point on rarity as compared with other jetons.
My order was with INumis, whom I've ordered a few times from before flawlessly. Another order was with Phillipe Saive, my first order with him. Over Christmas I had a few orders out that took five weeks to arrive from France, so I'm not sure what to expect right now. I read where their customs was recently changing policy or something, causing delays. I've found that the few I've dealt with from over there have been quite professional and courteous, so I trust there will be no problems.
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Nope! I'm not familiar with those.
It was a few years ago that there were terrorist threats in France which caused them to shut down the normal mail sytems for US deliveries. At first, they were holding onto the mail, but when things really started to pile up, they started trucking it to Spain for transport by boat. Mail was taking six weeks to get here.
Chris
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Sounds like a similar situation to what I've experienced. Here's a link to the note I read during my order delays around Christmas.
http://www.colissimo.fr/portail_colissimo/suivre.do?language=en_EN (http://www.colissimo.fr/portail_colissimo/suivre.do?language=en_EN)
Not sure if this is their standard shipping company, but I think CGB sent the tracking link to me.
My first order shipped the 14th, so I am expecting them to satart arriving anywhere from the 24th to late-March. :D